Firstly, it is clear that we both disagree on the Biblical 'truthfulness' about "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS). I have proven OSAS to be false in several of my videos. Maybe you might care to view one or more of them and offer some comments in response to share your thoughts with me?
— Are Robert Breaker's claims about 23rd Sept and 'Once Saved Always Saved' Biblically correct? - https://youtu.be/EVkcaxmsHv0
Next, the article above spoke about the "Children of Abraham" throughout the ages, who have demonstrated before God that as "Abraham had WORKS" that pleased God (John 8:39), so they also have performed the "WORKS" God requires them to perform:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, THE WORKS THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; and GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18)
"Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH [that includes "works"], THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM." (Galatians 3:7)
Larry - I'm not trying to appear confrontational here. Christians should defend what they believe. Many refuse to discuss issues like this with me. In this, they prefer to remain silent and move on. This behaviour is what makes Jesus Christ angry with such people, as they demonstrate they have no regard for (Absolute) 'TRUTH' only their own church’s ‘truth’:
" I KNOW THY WORKS, that THOU ART NEITHER COLD [i.e. against what is said by speaking up and quoting scripture verses to support their claims] NOR HOT [indicating total agreement with the preacher]: I would thou wert COLD or HOT. 16 So then because thou art LUKEWARM [by preferring to remain silent and moving on], and NEITHER COLD NOR HOT, I WILL SPUE THEE [or thy name] out of my [Christ’s] mouth [as detestable on Judgment day – Rev 20:11-15]." (Revelation 3:16).
Finally, if you prefer to not engage with me regarding OSAS via the videos, maybe you may care to provide me with an answer to the following question?
The scripture verse stated by the Apostle Paul below says:
"But THEY [i.e. today's Christians?] HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias [Isaiah 53:1] saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:16 KJV)
Given that the scripture verses below plainly state that Salvation is:
"...by GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the [free] GIFT OF GOD: 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The question here is that if Salvation is a "FREE GIFT" as stated above and in Romans 5:15, 16 and 18, what is the situation the Apostle is referring to in regards to "obeying the gospel"?
Finally, if Christians fail to "obey the gospel", does that indicate they have lost their Salvation?
Any comments you may have would be much appreciated, Larry.
“If Christians fail to meet the above foundational requirements for entry into Heaven, how else can they be assured of Salvation?”
When you recognize the 3 parts of salvation you realize you are justified by GRACE [ unmerited favor ]. Justification is the first step, not the journey. Sanctification is the journey [ the Lord’s Highway ].
I was saved [ justified ]. I am being saved [ sanctified ]. I shall be saved [ like Jesus ].
We are justified when we obey the gospel, it is simply a change of legal [ covenant ] status, you are now a child of the King. Now the King will continue to direct your tutors in your training, the writing of the Kings Laws on your heart [ sanctification ].
Do you believe “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Well, you had a pretty long list. Even a short list seems to conflict with “unmerited favor” so I guess I’m stalling until I become more familiar with your point/work/paradigm. If you’re doing anything to earn something you’re doing religion, which I am no longer much interested in.
John 15:1-8 in the King James Bible clearly states that God requires every Christian (symbolised as a "branch" grafted into Jesus (symbolised as the "True Vine") to produce the required quantity of "FRUIT". This means Christians MUST perform "WORKS" in which to produce the "FRUIT".
If "FRUITFUL" Christians produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God by the end of their life, Jesus says that He regards them as "GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS" in Matthew 25:21, 23.
Every "servant" is required by his (or her) master (or mistress) to "WORK". Jesus said this about the 'lazy servant' who failed to "WORK" as required for Him:
"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine...28 [Jesus said] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents...30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:24-30.
The point here is that Christians either produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God - or they don't. If they do, then they have eternal life with God and Christ after their life ends here on the Earth. If they fail to produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT", they will be "...cast...into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth [throughout eternity - Isaiah 66:22-24]." "
I hope this helps you "...become more familiar with your point/work/paradigm."
“We are new creatures in Christ, having been begotten by the Spirit. Our identity has been transferred from the fleshly man to the new man that was begotten by our heavenly Father by the Holy Spirit. We are not the same person that was born naturally. Our identity has been transferred to a new man, which, by nature, serves the law of God. That is what Paul taught.e
I agree with what you say Larry; however, "FAITH" without any accompanying "WORKS OF FAITH" is what the Apostle James calls "DEAD FAITH".
So my question to you is this Larry. Further back you said,
"I was saved [ justified ]. I am being saved [ sanctified ]. I shall be saved [ like Jesus ]."
If this a "positional" view of your faith without any of the associated "WORKS" that can demonstrate what you believe in - then James says such "faith" is "...vain...being alone" or worthless faith.
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17)
Therefore Larry, can you tell me what spiritual "WORKS" you undertake that aim to produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God that add towards your "ACCOUNT" in Heaven?
"But other [seed of the gospel] fell into GOOD GROUND, and brought forth FRUIT, some an HUNDREDFOLD, some SIXTYFOLD, some THIRTYFOLD." (Matthew 13:8)
"Not because I desire a gift: but I DESIRE FRUIT THAT MAY ABOUND TO YOUR ACCOUNT." Philippians 4:17
"I [Jesus] am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman [or gardener]. 2 Every branch [or Christian grafted] in[to] me [at Salvation] that BEARETH NOT FRUIT he [God the Father] TAKETH AWAY [from Me, Jesus for later burning in the Lake of Fire - verse 6]: and every branch that BEARETH FRUIT, he purgeth [or prunes] it [back], that it may bring forth MORE FRUIT." (John 15:1-2). Read verses 1-8 for more detail.
Finally - being a abundant "FRUIT-PRODUCING" Christian is essential to obtaining Salvation. Do you agree with this statement Larry?
Of course, the whole concept of sanctification is built on faith@work. My point is if you are doing rituals you are doing religion, and religion earns contempt. You remember: “the commandments and statutes of men” and “the traditions of the elders” = make work to benefit hierarchal religion.
We are saved in our spirit when justified, then we “work out our salvation [ sanctification ] in fear and trembling” and having done this [ being saved in our soul (life)] , when the meatsuit is retired, we go home to glory. Tripartite SALVATION.
Well Larry - there is very little of what you say in the Bible. If there was, you would put a number of Bible references next to your claims. If these references harmonise with your statements, then what you say has to be biblically correct. However, as none of these appear, what you have said is what you have been taught from your preferred 'religion' - meaning, your church denomination, or your favourite preacher.
Firstly, the term "Sanctification" means to be set apart for later use. In other words, if an apprentice carpenter has completed his apprenticeship, he then becomes 'sanctified' to do the work of a carpenter when required. That is how it is supposed to be with Christians.
In this, God requires them to first STOP SINNING - as God cannot have anything to do with sinners in His kingdom. The only exception is to help the sinner eradicate sin from their lives.
"HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)
The next step is for Christians to STUDY their Bibles so as to become APPROVED by God:
"STUDY to shew thyself APPROVED UNTO GOD, a WORKMAN that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15)
Finally, all true "WORKMEN" (in Christ) who have been 'SANCTIFIED' are required to share the many TRUTHS that he or she has learned with others. Doing this and defending 'The Faith' they have learned from the scriptures (Jude 1:3) further endorses their Sanctification:
"Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH." (John 17:17)
This is what Sanctification is all about Larry.
I will now claim that no person reading this post will refute what I say using scripture, because what I have said is Bible-based TRUTH. This is because it uses scripture to confirm the claims being made. Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Finally, where you say, "...when the meatsuit is retired, we go home to glory" - such a statement is fanciful.
When we die, our "Inner Man" (or spirit and soul - 2 Corinthians 4:16 - KJV) departs our physical body and goes to either Hell to await Final Judgement (Luke 16:19-31 and Rev. 20:11-15) or immediately to Heaven to be with Jesus IF we have met the following CONDITIONS:
• COMPLETELY STOPPED SINNING (1 John 3:6)
• Become as "Holy as God is Holy" (1 Peter 1:16)
• Become as "Perfect as God the Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48)
• Performed the SAME WORKS as Jesus Christ did (John 14:12)
• Brought the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" into God's kingdom (John 15:1-8 KJV)
Unless the above CONDITIONS that accompany the PROMISES of Salvation have been met, then there is No Salvation!
The ONLY EXCEPTION to this is if a Christians shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a sinner who is (say) on a hospital trolley and about to go into surgery. If the sinner has accepted Christ as their Saviour before dying on the operating table, he or she then goes to Heaven based upon what Jesus said to the penitent (or repentant) Thief on the Cross in Luke 23:43.
I hope this helps you understand God's requirements for being Sanctified, and that the Promises of Salvation come with CONDITIONS - just as most other contracts carry Terms and Conditions for both parties to honour. This is because God will NOT allow rebels like Satan into Heaven.
“Unless the above CONDITIONS [ sanctification ] that accompany the PROMISES of Salvation [ justification ] have been met, then there is No Salvation [ glorification ] ! I hope this explanation helps, Alan.
You are saying the same thing I’m saying. I practically write the verse without quotations and without references and either you don’t recognize or you haven’t incorporated it into your presentation. Thank You for your efforts, GOD bless ya!
Those words of yours didn't come across to me in what you wrote, because you used the term "Tripartite SALVATION", which is not in the Bible.
Salvation is a topic entirely on its own as I highlighted in my previous comments. In fact it is termed CONDITIONAL Salvation that accompanies the Promises associated with Salvation.
The 'Gospel of Jesus Christ' that represents the focal point in Salvation is ONLY capable of making the sinner become SINLESS - which is a pre-requisite to fulfilling the command to become as Holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:16). No "unholy Christian" will be allowed into Heaven!
There is also the Apostle Paul's Gospel that Christians MUST OBEY if they sincerely hope to spend eternity with both God the Father and Jesus Christ after their life is finished on the Earth:
"But they [meaning all of today's Christians] HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE [Apostle Paul's] GOSPEL. For Esaias [Isaiah 53:1] saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:16)
Briefly, the Apostle Paul's Gospel is aimed at the 'spiritually-minded' Christian. The teachings in this Gospel oppose what the 'religious Christians' promote in their churches and elsewhere today:
"For to be CARNALLY [or 'religiously'] MINDED is [eternal] death [in the Lake of Fire - Rev. 20:11-15]; but to be SPIRITUALLY minded is [eternal] life and peace [forever more - Isaiah 32:17]." (Romans 8:6)
Therefore Larry, can I ask whether you still agree with everything I say, in view of what I have said above?
Dear Alan, You have made assertions that I am making up stuff [ not biblical ] and not providing you with references so you can judge my words and tell me how far off track I am by using man-man terms for my mythology. I have explained those verses already, you are not listening.
“Maybe try explaining a scripture verse or two rather than deluge me with verses and hoping I will understand what you cannot say yourself, Larry.”
Go back to the beginning and you will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over, I’ve even emphatically pointed out the I AGREE WITH you.
Here’s the bottom line: using general terms [ salvation, love, j-e-w ] when more precise, accurate, BIBLICAL, defined, informative words are readily available leads to…. well you see what has happened here ^^^
“Unless you are prepared to discuss these aspects of Sanctification and how they are separate from Salvation Larry, I have no more to say because you prefer to mingle the terms Sanctification and Salvation when the Bible says they are completely separate. I have proven to you that these terms are separate, but you refuse to accept what the Bible plainly says.”
I gave you the analogy of the carpenter's apprentice who becomes qualified to undertake professional work (i.e. sanctified to construct buildings) to typify the process that Christians must:
• BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY GOD THE FATHER:
"It is written in the prophets, And THEY [the truly born-again Christians] SHALL BE ALL [personally] TAUGHT OF GOD. EVERY [godly] MAN therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, cometh unto me [Jesus]." (John 6:45)
• MUST PREACH THE GOSPEL
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE." (Mark 16:15)
• MUST DEFEND WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY
according to Jude 1:3.
You have failed to respond to my claim to this - so it is safe to presume you have rejected the Bible's statements of what Sanctification means for your own meaning - which is to replace Salvation with Sanctification.
I think I'm about through with this discussion Larry. This is because you are rejecting many, many scripture verses I have provided to PROVE my case - while you keep repeating your own beliefs that the scriptures I have shown you prove your claims to be false. You falsely claim that we are in agreement (when I have said we are not). Now you claim I am not listening to you when I can make the same (justified) claims against you.
As we both appear to be chasing each other's tails here, I think it is best that we agree to disagree and go our separate ways. Is that okay?
“Like I was saying, your analogy is perfect, but you seem oblivious to the fact we are still in it. We are being sanctified. We were justified at a point in time [ obeyed the gospel ] and now God is working through us to make us like Christ.
“In this, God requires them to first STOP SINNING - as God cannot have anything to do with sinners in His kingdom. The only exception is to help the sinner eradicate sin from their lives.”
Have you “stopped sinning”?
See, I am talking about the process. First, He changes our status from condemned sinner to adopted child through unmerited favor. This is justification. We were immersed into [ eis ] Christ, so ever after we enjoy his status so we can grow into his likeness. This second step of salvation takes a lifetime and is called sanctification. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, we don’t have to start over from scratch!
Titus 3:7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3:24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 2:16-17 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Read More...)
Romans 5:1-21 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Read More...)
Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:25 - Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 10:1-21 - Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Read More...)
2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Romans 6:6 - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Hebrews 13:12 - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 1:2 - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Romans 6:1-23 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Read More...)
Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
2 Peter 1:2-4 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (Read More...)
Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Exodus 31:13 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 John 3:2-4 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (Read More...)
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Read More...)
What is the point behind quoting so many verses of scripture, Larry?
The Apostle Paul said that he didn't "beat the air" like you are doing here but was prepared to FIGHT for the truth with certainty:
"I therefore so RUN [in the "RACE" God has set before every Christian to "RUN" - Hebrews 12:1-2], not as uncertainly; so fight I, NOT AS ONE THAT BEATETH THE AIR [by spraying scriptures as a shotgun would, rather than using a single bullet properly aimed]:" (1 Corinthians 9:26)
Maybe try explaining a scripture verse or two rather than deluge me with verses and hoping I will understand what you cannot say yourself, Larry.
Can you not admit that ALL the verses listed above are describing SALVATION?
Justification is the first step. The rest of your life you are being sanctified [ set apart for service in holiness ( as described in the OT ) ] until your body wears out and you [ spirit ] goes back to God. When you get a new body like Jesus’ it is the last step of Salvation [ saved bodily ].
What term am I misusing? You are using “initial salvation” for justification and “final salvation” for glorification. Can we agree that these man-made labels are inferior to the biblical terms?
“I am unsure if you have developed this message yourself, or whether you have gleaned it from one of your many Christians authors you have quoted from. Either way, none of what you wrote makes sense.”
You developed “initial salvation” to replace justification and “final salvation” to replace glorification [ for some reason ] and “ the Eight Stages Salvation” to replace sanctification.
The reason it don’t make sense is because you are substituting Old Covenant sanctification [ done by vow ] for New Covenant sanctification [ done by God’s promise ].
What you are doing is separating the Spirit, Soul and Body of a human and applying spiritual terms like Justification, Sanctification and Glorification to each one of these in your efforts to make a false Salvation message that is not in the Bible.
I am unsure if you have developed this message yourself, or whether you have gleaned it from one of your many Christians authors you have quoted from. Either way, none of what you wrote makes sense.
Described in other words. Christians ignore these other words describing salvation [ justification, sanctification, glorification ] just like they sometimes use the word “god” or “God” when referring to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Theses other words provide more detail and should not be used interchangeably. We have a tripartite god, we are tripartite beings, saved in stages of experience [ maturity ].
“It means that "WORKS" are essential for obtaining (Final) Salvation [ glorification ] . WORKS are NOT ALLOWED for Initial Salvation [ justification ] as it is by GRACE and through FAITH that we (like the person on the operating table) are 'Saved' [ sanctified before we die ].
This is exactly what I said above, “You can’t be glorified until you have been sanctified, and you can’t be sanctified until you have been justified. Faith@Work IS being sanctified. Agreement.”
I have real doubts about the benefits of sanctification for a few moments before your spirit leaves your body. What have you learned? The perfect example of an “unprofitable servant”.
In this, I agree with the context of your first paragraph; however, I disagree with your continued use of Sanctification with Salvation for reasons that I have explained previously.
Your question in the last paragraph is a little confusing, as you have used the word "sanctification' to now relate to physical death and when the individual's 'Inner Man' (Romans 7:22) departs their body for either Heaven (John 14:2) or Hell (2 Peter 2:9).
Why won't you accept my Bible-based explanation of what Sanctification really means, Larry?
Like I was saying, your analogy is perfect, but you seem oblivious to the fact we are still in it. We are being sanctified. We were justified at a point in time [ obeyed the gospel ] and now we are doing works of righteousness [ NOT to earn ] to celebrate the good news of what has been accomplished for us, that was impossible for us, and is being done mostly [ ideally ] without our help, since we barely know how to pray.
“God put nothing in the Bible that isn’t relevant. What seem like minor details prove to be very important when we understand the context. If something looks unimportant, it’s probably because we just don’t understand it correctly. Or, in the words of the late Dr. Michael Heiser, “If it’s in the Bible and it’s weird, it’s probably important.” Derik Gilbert
“Sometimes, I think it's simpler to use the words that people know for the purposes of communicating more important information (or what seemed more important to me) to the reader. Then later, I can explain why the name of the star was changed after the reader understands the bigger picture and has a foundation.” Sarah E. Lawton
Larry - thanks for sharing your thoughts about Salvation being "Tripartite", but I feel this aspect of your comments are becoming more 'theological' based upon the words of "men" who have NOT died and risen from the dead, but are simply 'men' whom you respect. Some of those you mentioned are Sarah E. Lawton, Dr. Michael Heiser, Geoff Stroud, etc.
I don't quote or refer to the words or opinions of "men" but only those of my Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets contained within the King James Bible.
I have previously explained (in a practical sense) how Sanctification is like an apprentice carpenter gaining his approval as a Master Carpenter - who could then be considered "set apart" (or Sanctified) for use as a fully skilled carpenter when required.
I used this analogy (similar to a parable) to describe how both God and Jesus train Christians to serve them to become as "good and faithful servants" - thereby becoming "sanctified" (or set apart) for God's use when He needs them.
"But know that the Lord hath SET APART that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him." (Psalm 4:3)
"And if it seem evil unto you TO SERVE THE LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
You haven't commented at all about this analogy, so I presume you have rejected this claim, Larry.
In this, Jesus said: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." in John 17:17. One has to learn what 'error' represents so as to discern 'truth' when it appears also.
The Apostle Paul said in relation to the church serving God and Christ as being "Sanctified:"
"That he [Jesus] MIGHT SANCTIFY and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD," (Ephesians 5:26)
I have found that many in the churches today look more to the words of theologians and of preachers offering alternative means of pleasing God, rather than complying with the CONDITIONS stated in the scriptures so as to attain eternal life with God after one's life is finished on Earth.
Maybe you might care to share your thoughts with me on my understanding of being "Sanctified", before we attempt to address any other issues you have raised, Larry?
“thanks for sharing your thoughts about Salvation being "Tripartite", but I feel this aspect of your comments are becoming more 'theological' based upon the words of "men" who have NOT died and risen from the dead, but are simply 'men' whom you respect. Some of those you mentioned are Sarah E. Lawton, Dr. Michael Heiser, Geoff Stroud, etc.”
I’m not citing the above individuals because I consider them authorities, they are writing stuff on substack just like we are. I brought there words here because they were trying to explain or at least shown that they are aware of the same problem this exchange illustrates. Almost every word we use has multiple definitions. Sometimes context takes care of it but often, not.
“I don't quote or refer to the words or opinions of "men" but only those of my Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets contained within the King James Bible.”
This is why you are arguing with me.
“I have previously explained (in a practical sense) how Sanctification is like an apprentice carpenter gaining his approval as a Master Carpenter - who could then be considered "set apart" (or Sanctified) for use as a fully skilled carpenter when required. I used this analogy (similar to a parable) to describe how both God and Jesus train Christians to serve them to become as "good and faithful servants" - thereby becoming "sanctified" (or set apart) for God's use when He needs them.
"But know that the Lord hath SET APART that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him." (Psalm 4:3)
"And if it seem evil unto you TO SERVE THE LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
You haven't commented at all about this analogy, so I presume you have rejected this claim, Larry.
In this, Jesus said: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." in John 17:17. One has to learn what 'error' represents so as to discern 'truth' when it appears also.
The Apostle Paul said in relation to the church serving God and Christ as being "Sanctified:"
"That he [Jesus] MIGHT SANCTIFY and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD," (Ephesians 5:26)
I have found that many in the churches today look more to the words of theologians and of preachers offering alternative means of pleasing God, rather than complying with the CONDITIONS stated in the scriptures so as to attain eternal life with God after one's life is finished on Earth.
Maybe you might care to share your thoughts with me on my understanding of being "Sanctified", before we attempt to address any other issues you have raised, Larry?
RE: Salvation has three parts; Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.
“Once Saved Always Saved” is talking about the predestined gracious justification of Elohim’s elect offspring who were foreknown [fore-loved] in the omniscient mind of Christ’s Spirit before the creation of time in eternity past. The unelect [unknown: “I Never knew you…”] foolish virgin’s fatal uncertainty comes from democratic innovators within Lucifer’s lukewarm Laodicean Whore. Well actually folks, being under Elohim’s powerful democratic delusion, the Truth-hating foolish virgins have had the holy-theocratic nomenclature of Christ’s mystical parables scrambled or ignored. Sanctification for the elect wise virgins in Christ’s holy-theocratic Bride begins immediately as described in and continues until the body is abandoned. The next thing you will be aware of is waking up in a new body [ flesh and bone ] like our Redeemer. This is called glorification.
For by the predestined grace of Elohim’s holy-theocratic will sovereignly foreordained His elect children to be saved through the indwelling Spirit [i.e. New Wine] of Christ’s most holy and obedient faith working within their faithfully repentant ’new wineskin’ hearts; and that not of themselves: it is the irrevocable gift of God’s Gospel in Ezekiel 36:25-27: Not of their self-righteous-willed works, lest any democratic-minded man should foolishly boast in their flesh’s alleged free will.” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore the wise virgins in Christ’s Bride joyfully take up their martyrs cross and daily work out their salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God (i.e. the New Wine) who theocratically works within their new wineskin hearts causing them both to will and to obediently act according to the foreordained good purpose of His sovereign holy will. Philippians 2:13
To John and Larry - what you have said here simply reflects your religious viewpoint. As what you wrote has little (if any) Biblical basis, I don't intend commenting.
“And I will give you ia new heart, and ia new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
Hello Larry - thanks for posting your comment.
Firstly, it is clear that we both disagree on the Biblical 'truthfulness' about "Once Saved Always Saved" (OSAS). I have proven OSAS to be false in several of my videos. Maybe you might care to view one or more of them and offer some comments in response to share your thoughts with me?
The videos are:
— Critique of Ken Yates Claims About Final Salvation - https://youtu.be/Il-cI0ksX0k
— Scriptural Rebuttal of Dr Gene Kim's statements about OSAS - https://youtu.be/SHXGvxROznU
— Are Robert Breaker's claims about 23rd Sept and 'Once Saved Always Saved' Biblically correct? - https://youtu.be/EVkcaxmsHv0
Next, the article above spoke about the "Children of Abraham" throughout the ages, who have demonstrated before God that as "Abraham had WORKS" that pleased God (John 8:39), so they also have performed the "WORKS" God requires them to perform:
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME, THE WORKS THAT I DO SHALL HE DO ALSO; and GREATER WORKS THAN THESE SHALL HE DO; because I go unto my Father." (John 14:12)
"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: SHEW ME THY FAITH WITHOUT THY WORKS, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS." (James 2:18)
"Know ye therefore that THEY WHICH ARE OF FAITH [that includes "works"], THE SAME ARE THE CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM." (Galatians 3:7)
Larry - I'm not trying to appear confrontational here. Christians should defend what they believe. Many refuse to discuss issues like this with me. In this, they prefer to remain silent and move on. This behaviour is what makes Jesus Christ angry with such people, as they demonstrate they have no regard for (Absolute) 'TRUTH' only their own church’s ‘truth’:
" I KNOW THY WORKS, that THOU ART NEITHER COLD [i.e. against what is said by speaking up and quoting scripture verses to support their claims] NOR HOT [indicating total agreement with the preacher]: I would thou wert COLD or HOT. 16 So then because thou art LUKEWARM [by preferring to remain silent and moving on], and NEITHER COLD NOR HOT, I WILL SPUE THEE [or thy name] out of my [Christ’s] mouth [as detestable on Judgment day – Rev 20:11-15]." (Revelation 3:16).
Finally, if you prefer to not engage with me regarding OSAS via the videos, maybe you may care to provide me with an answer to the following question?
The scripture verse stated by the Apostle Paul below says:
"But THEY [i.e. today's Christians?] HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias [Isaiah 53:1] saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:16 KJV)
Given that the scripture verses below plainly state that Salvation is:
"...by GRACE are ye SAVED THROUGH FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the [free] GIFT OF GOD: 9 NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
The question here is that if Salvation is a "FREE GIFT" as stated above and in Romans 5:15, 16 and 18, what is the situation the Apostle is referring to in regards to "obeying the gospel"?
Finally, if Christians fail to "obey the gospel", does that indicate they have lost their Salvation?
Any comments you may have would be much appreciated, Larry.
“If Christians fail to meet the above foundational requirements for entry into Heaven, how else can they be assured of Salvation?”
When you recognize the 3 parts of salvation you realize you are justified by GRACE [ unmerited favor ]. Justification is the first step, not the journey. Sanctification is the journey [ the Lord’s Highway ].
I was saved [ justified ]. I am being saved [ sanctified ]. I shall be saved [ like Jesus ].
I noticed that you failed to answer my question Larry. Maybe if you do that, we could consider discussing the matters you have raised?
Do you concur with “Once Justified, Always Justified”?
No.
We are justified when we obey the gospel, it is simply a change of legal [ covenant ] status, you are now a child of the King. Now the King will continue to direct your tutors in your training, the writing of the Kings Laws on your heart [ sanctification ].
Maybe you might care to explain what it actually is that Christians MUST DO to "...obey the gospel" as you claim, Larry?
"But they [today's Christians] have NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias [Isaiah 53:1] saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:16)
Do you believe “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Of course!
Well, you had a pretty long list. Even a short list seems to conflict with “unmerited favor” so I guess I’m stalling until I become more familiar with your point/work/paradigm. If you’re doing anything to earn something you’re doing religion, which I am no longer much interested in.
John 15:1-8 in the King James Bible clearly states that God requires every Christian (symbolised as a "branch" grafted into Jesus (symbolised as the "True Vine") to produce the required quantity of "FRUIT". This means Christians MUST perform "WORKS" in which to produce the "FRUIT".
If "FRUITFUL" Christians produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God by the end of their life, Jesus says that He regards them as "GOOD AND FAITHFUL SERVANTS" in Matthew 25:21, 23.
Every "servant" is required by his (or her) master (or mistress) to "WORK". Jesus said this about the 'lazy servant' who failed to "WORK" as required for Him:
"Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: 25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine...28 [Jesus said] Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents...30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:24-30.
The point here is that Christians either produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God - or they don't. If they do, then they have eternal life with God and Christ after their life ends here on the Earth. If they fail to produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT", they will be "...cast...into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth [throughout eternity - Isaiah 66:22-24]." "
I hope this helps you "...become more familiar with your point/work/paradigm."
“We are new creatures in Christ, having been begotten by the Spirit. Our identity has been transferred from the fleshly man to the new man that was begotten by our heavenly Father by the Holy Spirit. We are not the same person that was born naturally. Our identity has been transferred to a new man, which, by nature, serves the law of God. That is what Paul taught.e
I agree with what you say Larry; however, "FAITH" without any accompanying "WORKS OF FAITH" is what the Apostle James calls "DEAD FAITH".
So my question to you is this Larry. Further back you said,
"I was saved [ justified ]. I am being saved [ sanctified ]. I shall be saved [ like Jesus ]."
If this a "positional" view of your faith without any of the associated "WORKS" that can demonstrate what you believe in - then James says such "faith" is "...vain...being alone" or worthless faith.
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?" (James 2:20)
"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17)
Therefore Larry, can you tell me what spiritual "WORKS" you undertake that aim to produce the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" unto God that add towards your "ACCOUNT" in Heaven?
"But other [seed of the gospel] fell into GOOD GROUND, and brought forth FRUIT, some an HUNDREDFOLD, some SIXTYFOLD, some THIRTYFOLD." (Matthew 13:8)
"Not because I desire a gift: but I DESIRE FRUIT THAT MAY ABOUND TO YOUR ACCOUNT." Philippians 4:17
"I [Jesus] am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman [or gardener]. 2 Every branch [or Christian grafted] in[to] me [at Salvation] that BEARETH NOT FRUIT he [God the Father] TAKETH AWAY [from Me, Jesus for later burning in the Lake of Fire - verse 6]: and every branch that BEARETH FRUIT, he purgeth [or prunes] it [back], that it may bring forth MORE FRUIT." (John 15:1-2). Read verses 1-8 for more detail.
Finally - being a abundant "FRUIT-PRODUCING" Christian is essential to obtaining Salvation. Do you agree with this statement Larry?
Of course, the whole concept of sanctification is built on faith@work. My point is if you are doing rituals you are doing religion, and religion earns contempt. You remember: “the commandments and statutes of men” and “the traditions of the elders” = make work to benefit hierarchal religion.
We are saved in our spirit when justified, then we “work out our salvation [ sanctification ] in fear and trembling” and having done this [ being saved in our soul (life)] , when the meatsuit is retired, we go home to glory. Tripartite SALVATION.
Well Larry - there is very little of what you say in the Bible. If there was, you would put a number of Bible references next to your claims. If these references harmonise with your statements, then what you say has to be biblically correct. However, as none of these appear, what you have said is what you have been taught from your preferred 'religion' - meaning, your church denomination, or your favourite preacher.
Firstly, the term "Sanctification" means to be set apart for later use. In other words, if an apprentice carpenter has completed his apprenticeship, he then becomes 'sanctified' to do the work of a carpenter when required. That is how it is supposed to be with Christians.
In this, God requires them to first STOP SINNING - as God cannot have anything to do with sinners in His kingdom. The only exception is to help the sinner eradicate sin from their lives.
"HE THAT COMMITTETH SIN IS OF THE DEVIL; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil." (1 John 3:8)
The next step is for Christians to STUDY their Bibles so as to become APPROVED by God:
"STUDY to shew thyself APPROVED UNTO GOD, a WORKMAN that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15)
Finally, all true "WORKMEN" (in Christ) who have been 'SANCTIFIED' are required to share the many TRUTHS that he or she has learned with others. Doing this and defending 'The Faith' they have learned from the scriptures (Jude 1:3) further endorses their Sanctification:
"Sanctify them through thy truth: THY WORD IS TRUTH." (John 17:17)
This is what Sanctification is all about Larry.
I will now claim that no person reading this post will refute what I say using scripture, because what I have said is Bible-based TRUTH. This is because it uses scripture to confirm the claims being made. Scripture cannot contradict itself.
Finally, where you say, "...when the meatsuit is retired, we go home to glory" - such a statement is fanciful.
When we die, our "Inner Man" (or spirit and soul - 2 Corinthians 4:16 - KJV) departs our physical body and goes to either Hell to await Final Judgement (Luke 16:19-31 and Rev. 20:11-15) or immediately to Heaven to be with Jesus IF we have met the following CONDITIONS:
• COMPLETELY STOPPED SINNING (1 John 3:6)
• Become as "Holy as God is Holy" (1 Peter 1:16)
• Become as "Perfect as God the Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48)
• Performed the SAME WORKS as Jesus Christ did (John 14:12)
• Brought the required quantity of spiritual "FRUIT" into God's kingdom (John 15:1-8 KJV)
Unless the above CONDITIONS that accompany the PROMISES of Salvation have been met, then there is No Salvation!
The ONLY EXCEPTION to this is if a Christians shares the Gospel of Jesus Christ with a sinner who is (say) on a hospital trolley and about to go into surgery. If the sinner has accepted Christ as their Saviour before dying on the operating table, he or she then goes to Heaven based upon what Jesus said to the penitent (or repentant) Thief on the Cross in Luke 23:43.
I hope this helps you understand God's requirements for being Sanctified, and that the Promises of Salvation come with CONDITIONS - just as most other contracts carry Terms and Conditions for both parties to honour. This is because God will NOT allow rebels like Satan into Heaven.
I hope this explanation helps, Larry.
“Unless the above CONDITIONS [ sanctification ] that accompany the PROMISES of Salvation [ justification ] have been met, then there is No Salvation [ glorification ] ! I hope this explanation helps, Alan.
You are saying the same thing I’m saying. I practically write the verse without quotations and without references and either you don’t recognize or you haven’t incorporated it into your presentation. Thank You for your efforts, GOD bless ya!
Hi Larry,
I appreciate your comment that said:
"You are saying the same thing I’m saying."
Those words of yours didn't come across to me in what you wrote, because you used the term "Tripartite SALVATION", which is not in the Bible.
Salvation is a topic entirely on its own as I highlighted in my previous comments. In fact it is termed CONDITIONAL Salvation that accompanies the Promises associated with Salvation.
The 'Gospel of Jesus Christ' that represents the focal point in Salvation is ONLY capable of making the sinner become SINLESS - which is a pre-requisite to fulfilling the command to become as Holy as God is holy (1 Peter 1:16). No "unholy Christian" will be allowed into Heaven!
There is also the Apostle Paul's Gospel that Christians MUST OBEY if they sincerely hope to spend eternity with both God the Father and Jesus Christ after their life is finished on the Earth:
"But they [meaning all of today's Christians] HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE [Apostle Paul's] GOSPEL. For Esaias [Isaiah 53:1] saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" (Romans 10:16)
Briefly, the Apostle Paul's Gospel is aimed at the 'spiritually-minded' Christian. The teachings in this Gospel oppose what the 'religious Christians' promote in their churches and elsewhere today:
"For to be CARNALLY [or 'religiously'] MINDED is [eternal] death [in the Lake of Fire - Rev. 20:11-15]; but to be SPIRITUALLY minded is [eternal] life and peace [forever more - Isaiah 32:17]." (Romans 8:6)
Therefore Larry, can I ask whether you still agree with everything I say, in view of what I have said above?
Dear Alan, You have made assertions that I am making up stuff [ not biblical ] and not providing you with references so you can judge my words and tell me how far off track I am by using man-man terms for my mythology. I have explained those verses already, you are not listening.
“Maybe try explaining a scripture verse or two rather than deluge me with verses and hoping I will understand what you cannot say yourself, Larry.”
Go back to the beginning and you will see that I have been saying the same thing over and over, I’ve even emphatically pointed out the I AGREE WITH you.
Here’s the bottom line: using general terms [ salvation, love, j-e-w ] when more precise, accurate, BIBLICAL, defined, informative words are readily available leads to…. well you see what has happened here ^^^
“Unless you are prepared to discuss these aspects of Sanctification and how they are separate from Salvation Larry, I have no more to say because you prefer to mingle the terms Sanctification and Salvation when the Bible says they are completely separate. I have proven to you that these terms are separate, but you refuse to accept what the Bible plainly says.”
This has not happened.
Excuse me Larry - but who hasn't been listening??
I gave you the analogy of the carpenter's apprentice who becomes qualified to undertake professional work (i.e. sanctified to construct buildings) to typify the process that Christians must:
• BE PERSONALLY TAUGHT BY GOD THE FATHER:
"It is written in the prophets, And THEY [the truly born-again Christians] SHALL BE ALL [personally] TAUGHT OF GOD. EVERY [godly] MAN therefore that hath HEARD, and hath LEARNED of the Father, cometh unto me [Jesus]." (John 6:45)
• MUST PREACH THE GOSPEL
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
PREACH THE GOSPEL TO EVERY CREATURE." (Mark 16:15)
• MUST DEFEND WHAT THE SCRIPTURES SAY
according to Jude 1:3.
You have failed to respond to my claim to this - so it is safe to presume you have rejected the Bible's statements of what Sanctification means for your own meaning - which is to replace Salvation with Sanctification.
I think I'm about through with this discussion Larry. This is because you are rejecting many, many scripture verses I have provided to PROVE my case - while you keep repeating your own beliefs that the scriptures I have shown you prove your claims to be false. You falsely claim that we are in agreement (when I have said we are not). Now you claim I am not listening to you when I can make the same (justified) claims against you.
As we both appear to be chasing each other's tails here, I think it is best that we agree to disagree and go our separate ways. Is that okay?
Its a good thing that we have a Mediator. God be with Ye!
“Like I was saying, your analogy is perfect, but you seem oblivious to the fact we are still in it. We are being sanctified. We were justified at a point in time [ obeyed the gospel ] and now God is working through us to make us like Christ.
“In this, God requires them to first STOP SINNING - as God cannot have anything to do with sinners in His kingdom. The only exception is to help the sinner eradicate sin from their lives.”
Have you “stopped sinning”?
See, I am talking about the process. First, He changes our status from condemned sinner to adopted child through unmerited favor. This is justification. We were immersed into [ eis ] Christ, so ever after we enjoy his status so we can grow into his likeness. This second step of salvation takes a lifetime and is called sanctification. If we sin we have an advocate with the Father, we don’t have to start over from scratch!
“I have no more to say because you prefer to mingle the terms Sanctification and Salvation when the Bible says they are completely separate.”
You have not proven this.
Titus 3:7 - That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Galatians 3:24 - Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 2:16-17 - Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Read More...)
Romans 5:1-21 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: (Read More...)
Romans 3:28 - Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Romans 4:2 - For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:25 - Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Romans 10:1-21 - Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. (Read More...)
2 Timothy 2:21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
1 Thessalonians 5:23 - And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
John 17:17 - Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2 Corinthians 5:17 - Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Galatians 2:20 - I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 - But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1 Thessalonians 4:3 - For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
Romans 6:6 - Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Hebrews 13:12 - Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1 Corinthians 1:2 - Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Romans 6:1-23 - What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (Read More...)
Hebrews 10:14 - For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
2 Peter 1:2-4 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, (Read More...)
Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Exodus 31:13 - Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 John 3:2-4 - Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (Read More...)
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 - For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Read More...)
What is the point behind quoting so many verses of scripture, Larry?
The Apostle Paul said that he didn't "beat the air" like you are doing here but was prepared to FIGHT for the truth with certainty:
"I therefore so RUN [in the "RACE" God has set before every Christian to "RUN" - Hebrews 12:1-2], not as uncertainly; so fight I, NOT AS ONE THAT BEATETH THE AIR [by spraying scriptures as a shotgun would, rather than using a single bullet properly aimed]:" (1 Corinthians 9:26)
Maybe try explaining a scripture verse or two rather than deluge me with verses and hoping I will understand what you cannot say yourself, Larry.
Can you not admit that ALL the verses listed above are describing SALVATION?
Justification is the first step. The rest of your life you are being sanctified [ set apart for service in holiness ( as described in the OT ) ] until your body wears out and you [ spirit ] goes back to God. When you get a new body like Jesus’ it is the last step of Salvation [ saved bodily ].
No - I disagree Larry. Your last statement indicates you are misusing terms to rearrange God's Salvation message to mean something else.
I have been through all of this with you previously but you prefer to keep recycling your beliefs back to me again.
What term am I misusing? You are using “initial salvation” for justification and “final salvation” for glorification. Can we agree that these man-made labels are inferior to the biblical terms?
Finally - being a abundant "FRUIT-PRODUCING" Christian is essential to obtaining Salvation. Do you agree with this statement Larry?
Yes, we are producing wood, hay and stubble [ maybe a little bit of gold ] in this exchange.
From your response, I it appears you didn't understand a thing of what I explained to you about Gold, Silver or Precious Stones, Larry.
“I am unsure if you have developed this message yourself, or whether you have gleaned it from one of your many Christians authors you have quoted from. Either way, none of what you wrote makes sense.”
You developed “initial salvation” to replace justification and “final salvation” to replace glorification [ for some reason ] and “ the Eight Stages Salvation” to replace sanctification.
The reason it don’t make sense is because you are substituting Old Covenant sanctification [ done by vow ] for New Covenant sanctification [ done by God’s promise ].
Do you like “triune” adjective
Being three in one. Used especially of the Christian Trinity.
Being three in one; -- an epithet used to express the unity of a trinity of persons in the Godhead.
Threefold, having three components that are both separate and united; said especially of the Trinity of Christian doctrine.
better than “tripartite” adjective
Composed of or divided into three parts.
Relating to or executed by three parties.
"a tripartite agreement."
Divided into three parts; triparted.
"a tripartite leaf"
We are made in God’s image = triune, trinity, tripartite - take your pick.
Some are still using “soul” and “spirit” interchangeably, which causes confusion.
Saved Spirit = Justification Saved Soul [ life ] = Sanctification Saved Body = Glorification
All three are salvation. Why won't you accept my Bible-based explanation of what Sanctification really means, Alan?
What you are doing is separating the Spirit, Soul and Body of a human and applying spiritual terms like Justification, Sanctification and Glorification to each one of these in your efforts to make a false Salvation message that is not in the Bible.
I am unsure if you have developed this message yourself, or whether you have gleaned it from one of your many Christians authors you have quoted from. Either way, none of what you wrote makes sense.
Do you believe - Once Sanctified, Always Sanctified?
You are right, “Bible words for Bible things”. If I say “tripartite salvation” it is a word the writers did not use but the idea is des
When you use the word “love” you could be saying:
1. agape - unmerited
2. philia - familial
3. eros - sexual
4. storge - motherly
and several others,
https://www.dictionary.com/e/greek-words-for-love/
Described in other words. Christians ignore these other words describing salvation [ justification, sanctification, glorification ] just like they sometimes use the word “god” or “God” when referring to the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. Theses other words provide more detail and should not be used interchangeably. We have a tripartite god, we are tripartite beings, saved in stages of experience [ maturity ].
“It means that "WORKS" are essential for obtaining (Final) Salvation [ glorification ] . WORKS are NOT ALLOWED for Initial Salvation [ justification ] as it is by GRACE and through FAITH that we (like the person on the operating table) are 'Saved' [ sanctified before we die ].
This is exactly what I said above, “You can’t be glorified until you have been sanctified, and you can’t be sanctified until you have been justified. Faith@Work IS being sanctified. Agreement.”
I have real doubts about the benefits of sanctification for a few moments before your spirit leaves your body. What have you learned? The perfect example of an “unprofitable servant”.
Very good Larry!
In this, I agree with the context of your first paragraph; however, I disagree with your continued use of Sanctification with Salvation for reasons that I have explained previously.
Your question in the last paragraph is a little confusing, as you have used the word "sanctification' to now relate to physical death and when the individual's 'Inner Man' (Romans 7:22) departs their body for either Heaven (John 14:2) or Hell (2 Peter 2:9).
Why won't you accept my Bible-based explanation of what Sanctification really means, Larry?
Like I was saying, your analogy is perfect, but you seem oblivious to the fact we are still in it. We are being sanctified. We were justified at a point in time [ obeyed the gospel ] and now we are doing works of righteousness [ NOT to earn ] to celebrate the good news of what has been accomplished for us, that was impossible for us, and is being done mostly [ ideally ] without our help, since we barely know how to pray.
https://godskingdom.org/studies/tracts/are-you-under-the-law-or-grace/
I don't agree with this website's understanding of Grace.
Well, it must be wrong!
“God put nothing in the Bible that isn’t relevant. What seem like minor details prove to be very important when we understand the context. If something looks unimportant, it’s probably because we just don’t understand it correctly. Or, in the words of the late Dr. Michael Heiser, “If it’s in the Bible and it’s weird, it’s probably important.” Derik Gilbert
“Sometimes, I think it's simpler to use the words that people know for the purposes of communicating more important information (or what seemed more important to me) to the reader. Then later, I can explain why the name of the star was changed after the reader understands the bigger picture and has a foundation.” Sarah E. Lawton
Larry - thanks for sharing your thoughts about Salvation being "Tripartite", but I feel this aspect of your comments are becoming more 'theological' based upon the words of "men" who have NOT died and risen from the dead, but are simply 'men' whom you respect. Some of those you mentioned are Sarah E. Lawton, Dr. Michael Heiser, Geoff Stroud, etc.
I don't quote or refer to the words or opinions of "men" but only those of my Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets contained within the King James Bible.
I have previously explained (in a practical sense) how Sanctification is like an apprentice carpenter gaining his approval as a Master Carpenter - who could then be considered "set apart" (or Sanctified) for use as a fully skilled carpenter when required.
I used this analogy (similar to a parable) to describe how both God and Jesus train Christians to serve them to become as "good and faithful servants" - thereby becoming "sanctified" (or set apart) for God's use when He needs them.
"But know that the Lord hath SET APART that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him." (Psalm 4:3)
"And if it seem evil unto you TO SERVE THE LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
You haven't commented at all about this analogy, so I presume you have rejected this claim, Larry.
In this, Jesus said: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." in John 17:17. One has to learn what 'error' represents so as to discern 'truth' when it appears also.
The Apostle Paul said in relation to the church serving God and Christ as being "Sanctified:"
"That he [Jesus] MIGHT SANCTIFY and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD," (Ephesians 5:26)
I have found that many in the churches today look more to the words of theologians and of preachers offering alternative means of pleasing God, rather than complying with the CONDITIONS stated in the scriptures so as to attain eternal life with God after one's life is finished on Earth.
Maybe you might care to share your thoughts with me on my understanding of being "Sanctified", before we attempt to address any other issues you have raised, Larry?
“thanks for sharing your thoughts about Salvation being "Tripartite", but I feel this aspect of your comments are becoming more 'theological' based upon the words of "men" who have NOT died and risen from the dead, but are simply 'men' whom you respect. Some of those you mentioned are Sarah E. Lawton, Dr. Michael Heiser, Geoff Stroud, etc.”
I’m not citing the above individuals because I consider them authorities, they are writing stuff on substack just like we are. I brought there words here because they were trying to explain or at least shown that they are aware of the same problem this exchange illustrates. Almost every word we use has multiple definitions. Sometimes context takes care of it but often, not.
“I don't quote or refer to the words or opinions of "men" but only those of my Saviour Jesus Christ and the Apostles and Prophets contained within the King James Bible.”
This is why you are arguing with me.
“I have previously explained (in a practical sense) how Sanctification is like an apprentice carpenter gaining his approval as a Master Carpenter - who could then be considered "set apart" (or Sanctified) for use as a fully skilled carpenter when required. I used this analogy (similar to a parable) to describe how both God and Jesus train Christians to serve them to become as "good and faithful servants" - thereby becoming "sanctified" (or set apart) for God's use when He needs them.
"But know that the Lord hath SET APART that is godly for himself: the Lord will hear when I call unto him." (Psalm 4:3)
"And if it seem evil unto you TO SERVE THE LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but AS FOR ME AND MY HOUSE, WE WILL SERVE THE LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
You haven't commented at all about this analogy, so I presume you have rejected this claim, Larry.
In this, Jesus said: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." in John 17:17. One has to learn what 'error' represents so as to discern 'truth' when it appears also.
The Apostle Paul said in relation to the church serving God and Christ as being "Sanctified:"
"That he [Jesus] MIGHT SANCTIFY and CLEANSE IT with the washing of water BY THE WORD," (Ephesians 5:26)
I have found that many in the churches today look more to the words of theologians and of preachers offering alternative means of pleasing God, rather than complying with the CONDITIONS stated in the scriptures so as to attain eternal life with God after one's life is finished on Earth.
Maybe you might care to share your thoughts with me on my understanding of being "Sanctified", before we attempt to address any other issues you have raised, Larry?
Larry Carter
Dec 4
RE: Salvation has three parts; Justification, Sanctification and Glorification.
“Once Saved Always Saved” is talking about the predestined gracious justification of Elohim’s elect offspring who were foreknown [fore-loved] in the omniscient mind of Christ’s Spirit before the creation of time in eternity past. The unelect [unknown: “I Never knew you…”] foolish virgin’s fatal uncertainty comes from democratic innovators within Lucifer’s lukewarm Laodicean Whore. Well actually folks, being under Elohim’s powerful democratic delusion, the Truth-hating foolish virgins have had the holy-theocratic nomenclature of Christ’s mystical parables scrambled or ignored. Sanctification for the elect wise virgins in Christ’s holy-theocratic Bride begins immediately as described in and continues until the body is abandoned. The next thing you will be aware of is waking up in a new body [ flesh and bone ] like our Redeemer. This is called glorification.
For by the predestined grace of Elohim’s holy-theocratic will sovereignly foreordained His elect children to be saved through the indwelling Spirit [i.e. New Wine] of Christ’s most holy and obedient faith working within their faithfully repentant ’new wineskin’ hearts; and that not of themselves: it is the irrevocable gift of God’s Gospel in Ezekiel 36:25-27: Not of their self-righteous-willed works, lest any democratic-minded man should foolishly boast in their flesh’s alleged free will.” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore the wise virgins in Christ’s Bride joyfully take up their martyrs cross and daily work out their salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God (i.e. the New Wine) who theocratically works within their new wineskin hearts causing them both to will and to obediently act according to the foreordained good purpose of His sovereign holy will. Philippians 2:13
To John and Larry - what you have said here simply reflects your religious viewpoint. As what you wrote has little (if any) Biblical basis, I don't intend commenting.
All viewpoints are religious viewpoints.
“And I will give you ia new heart, and ia new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.”
This takes a lifetime.